Scott on Writing

Musings on technical writing...

Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours?

Earlier this week I blogged about my latest book hitting bookstores, Teach Yourself ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 HoursJeff Atwood chimed in with a blog post that pokes fun at the title Teach Yourself ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 Hours. Take a moment to read his post, it's both entertaining and brings up some good points, the main ones being:

  1. What's with the 24 Hours bit in the title? Why not 23 Hours? Or 25 Hours? Or 1 Hour? Or 5 minutes? Or 1 SECOND?
  2. How in the world can a book say that you can learn ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 Hours. It takes months, years... and even then who really knows it? (Perhaps I don't get out enough, but the only two people I've ever talked to/interfaced with that I felt really knew ASP.NET to their core were Scott Guthrie and Rob Howard. Now Scott, along with Mark Anders, invented ASP.NET, and Rob was a program manager from the early days. I'm know there are more folks out there who have as deep an understanding as those two, but the point remains - very, very, very few people can truly, profoundly know a technology whose breadth is so immense.)
  3. Books with titles like Teach Yourself X in 24 Hours cheapen the field. To quote from Jeff's blog entry: “I humbly submit that books with titles like Teach Yourself ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 Hours cheapen our craft. Any computer book with a length of time in the title -- weeks, months, days, hours -- is doing its readers a disservice by demoting software development from a craft you spend your life practicing to a mechanical activity that can be learned in a limited time window.“

I'd like to address each of these points Jeff makes.

What's with the 24 Hours bit in the title? Why not 23 Hours? Or 25 Hours? Or 1 Hour? Or 5 minutes? Or 1 SECOND?
Sams Publishing is the publisher with the Teach Yourself X in <INSERT TIME LIMIT HERE> series. Now I am not a publisher nor was asked to sit in any meetings when deciding these series structure and semantics, but my understanding is that the time periods are chosen for logical reasons. For a 24 Hour book, each hour corresponds to a chapter in the book that, in theory, takes an hour to work through. In a 21 Days book, there are 21 chapters, and the chapters are intended to cover more content at a deeper level of detail than in a 24 Hour chapter.

The point is that there is thought and meaning behind the time period. It's an indication to the prospective buyer on the depth of the material contained within and the “difficulty level” of the text. Want a quick, scatch-the-surface introduction to a technology? Pick up a Teach Yourself X in 10 Minutes. Interested in a more detailed examination, but one still geared for beginner- to intermediate-level developers? The 24 Hours series may be better suited. And if you want a more in-depth exploration of the technology, the 21 Days book is more up your alley.

How in the world can a book say that you can learn ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 Hours
The word “learn” means different things to different people based upon their experiences and expectations. To someone who has never created an ASP.NET page in her life, when she says she wants to “learn” ASP.NET she doesn't mean, “Explain how I can create a custom membership provider to utilize my existing application's database credential store.” She means, “How do I create a Web page that can collect user input?“ and “How do I show database information on a web page?“ Ditto for people who may have had some experience with competing technologies - classic ASP, PHP, ColdFusion - but is interested to moving to ASP.NET. Ditto for junior-level ASP.NET 1.x developers.

Some of the comments left in response to Jeff's blog entry suggested that the book's title spell out what, exactly, will be learned, because it's clearly impossible to learn everything in ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 hours. This information is available. The back of the book spells out what you can expect to accomplish. “In just 24 sessions of one hour or less, you will be able to create ASP.NET web pages that interact with user input and online databases.“ It has a bulleted list of what you can expect to learn:

  • Get started creating ASP.NET web pages
  • Collect and store input from users visiting your website
  • Display, sort, edit, and page through database data in an ASP.NET web page
  • Allow visitors to insert, update, and delete data from an underlying database
  • Build websites that support user accounts

The book's Introduction also includes a synopsis of the book's material and what a prospective reader can expect to learn. No where does it promise to make you an ASP.NET master ninja guru.

Furthermore, on the book's cover and spine it clearly says STARTER KIT in a font the same size as the “Teach Yourself.”

Someone who has architected and created large data-driven ASP.NET 1.x applications obviously isn't going to gain much from this book. But here's the kicker - this book ain't for them! What is a little frustrating is that they know this. You can't tell me some developer who's been around the ASP.NET block more than a few times actually says to herself, “I need to master ASP.NET 2.0. Ah, this Teach Yourself in 24 Hours ought to do the trick!” So why gripe about the title? (This provides a nice segue into the next section...........)

Books with titles like Teach Yourself ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 Hours cheapen our craft
I can see where this sentiment comes from - there's nothing more frustrating than working with some novice developer who's created his first data-driven website and now thinks he is some ASP.NET Master of the Universe. And, perhaps, books with such titles give a false sense of confidence to those who have worked through the book, allowing them to rationalize, “Well, I've put in my 24 hours and now I am an ASP.NET guru. Watch out Dino Esposito, your job will be mine shortly!”

But what I also think there's a bit of ego wrapped up in this. A top-notch developer has no doubt invested years in formal education, real-world experience, attending conferences/LUG talks/classes, and now, when he walks into the bookstores with his friends they see this book and say, “Oh, that's what you do all day? And it only takes 24 hours to learn it? Man, you have it easy.”

My take on it is thus: I like programming and really enjoy ASP.NET. I think it's neat and fun and interesting and cool how you can go from literally nothing to having a data-driven web application that can be used by people around the world in an amazingly fast amount of time. Furthermore, I want to spread that enthusiasm to folks. I want to say to those who may have never programmed, or to those who are using competing technologies, or to those who are just starting out - “Come over here and try out this ASP.NET stuff. Here, let me show you what it can do!” That's why I teach (which pays pennies compared to consulting). That's why I write (which pays better than teaching, but still is not anywhere near as lucrative as consulting). That's why I give free talks at local user groups and community-sponsored conferences here in Southern California. To get the word out!

To me, saying that titles like Teach Yourself X in 24 Hours cheapen the craft is tantamount to saying, “Our club is full. Go away.” It's not saying, “Let's welcome the newbies and get them excited about this technology.” Rather, it's saying, “Newbies are ok, but they must first realize how hard this is, how hard we've worked, and how much more we know than them.” I worry that such sentiment from the community will come across as pompousness to those very people whom we should be welcoming. (I'm not trying to imply that Jeff has a holier than thou attitude, as his humility is evidenced by various blog entries[1][2][3], but I think some folks do fall into this camp. And even if it's not an ego-driven attitude, it's one that can be off-putting to those entering the field.)

In closing, the Teach Yourself X in 24 Hours title may seem a bit of a laugh for an experienced ASP.NET developer who knows that ASP.NET is not something that can be “learned” in a scant 24 hours, but to those entering the field, such a title expresses the book's intent and level of detail, and I think it helps reassure an on-the-fence user that they don't need to be a computer whiz to get started with ASP.NET.

posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:46 AM

Feedback

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 11:09 AM Jeff Atwood

Well said.

I still maintain there's a kind of quantified absurdity in titles like "8 Minute Abs". It's an implied arms race: if you can do 8, can you do 7?

And why, as Norvig points out, is this title meme so prevalent in computer fields and almost nowhere else?

I think the title is misleading, particularly for beginners. Why can't it be something like "Your First Day in ASP.NET 2.0"? At least that implies an ongoing relationship, and not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am superficiality.

Probably because "Learn ASP.NET 2.0 in 24 hours" sells better, I guess.

But it clearly won't sell as well as the "Learn ASP.NET 2.0 in Negative Infinity Plus One Hour" title one of my commenters suggested. ;)

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 11:12 AM Scott Mitchell

Jeff, I agree. Back when I wrote my first book, Sams Teach Yourself ASP in 21 Days, my coauthor and I used to joke about this incessently. Similar to the Something About Mary line you mention in your blog entry, we'd talk about releasing our own book one day titled, "Teach Yourself ASP Via Osmosis." Who wouldn't go for that!?! :-)

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 11:16 AM Haacked

I like that, though a better selling title would be: "Lean ASP.NET While You Sleep!"

# Jeff, You're Wrong 4/6/2006 11:35 AM Anonymous

Scott, good rebuttle. I was thinking the same when I read Jeff's original post.

Jeff, yes, you can do 7 minute abs. It's not as good as if you do 8 minutes, but it's better than if you do 0 minutes. Likewise, you can do 6 minute abs or 5 minute abs.

A typical semester of school is three 50-minute classes for 18 weeks. That's less than 45 hours of material, which includes exam-times, reviews, etc. So if someone claimed "Learn Physics 101 in 45 hours", they would in fact be correct. Could you do it in 44? Sure. 40? you bet ya! 10? Yeh, not as good as 45, but yeh.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 11:43 AM Travis

Re: cheapening the craft... I think I would be worried less about scaring off newbies than having manager-style non-tech folks looking at titles like "Learn X in 24 Hours" and wondering why it's a good investment to have experienced developers on staff instead of hiring a round of newbies, buying a shelf full of books, and setting them off on desigining the Next Big Thing.

It might sound like common sense to the tech folks, but I can't tell you how many times I've talked to non-techies who devalue experience to save a buck, end up regretting it, then forgetting the lesson learned and repeating the mistake.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 11:52 AM Jiv

Great post Scott!

I was waiting for your reply to Jeff's post, he defnitely had a point.

However, I know a lot of people who got started into programming through these 24 hours books...and have gone on to read books like code complete and patterns. However people need to start somewhere - and these books lower the entry point.



# Can you learn X in a short time limit? 4/6/2006 12:02 PM Keyvan Nayyeri


Can you learn something like ASP.NET in a &lt;Time Limit&gt; when &lt;TimeLimit&gt; is less than...

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 12:27 PM Joe Brinkman

I can just imagine Jeff's thoughts on http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/productCd-076457907X.html

Scott. You sure you weren't a drug dealer in a past life? Here kiddies... try this ASP.Net 2.0 stuff. This first hit is free. But after that you'll be buying my "good" stuff for years to come, and you'll still be behind the learning curve ;).

I think that book publishers are the ones who keep changing the technology on us so fast just so that they can hook us on the next new thing... which by the way... How would you like to Learn Ruby on Rails in 24 Hours?

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 2:37 PM Simon

I'd like to read "Write a programming book in 24 hours" ...

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/6/2006 5:53 PM Miral

I think it'd be better if you had gone for "Learn *About* ASP.NET in 24 Hours".

"Learn X" implies "learn X fully" or at least fairly comprehensively. A full course, in other words.

"Learn About X" has no implications beyond learning of X's existance, so is a better fit for a "light" course.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/7/2006 6:58 AM Sergio

I've learned a lot with your articles and books. It's too bad (for us readers) that you only found time to write for the 24hrs series and not the 21 days or 12 months.

Please focus on writing articles/ books and forget about philosophical debates about the meaning of time... :)

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/9/2006 2:18 AM Lakshmi

IMHO, the title just does not mean mastering ASP.net2.0 in 24 hrs. Its just meant to learn the basics/differences from earlier versions in lesser time. For those mortals who need hours of pounding, there are lot of BIBLES :)

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/10/2006 7:56 AM GMoney

A couple of weeks ago our team lead encouraged us to offer suggestions for ASP.Net 2.0 training classes and materials. One developer recommended your book and no-one took him serious. Our team lead said "We are a professional team and I want us to learn how to do things the right way". So I kind of agree with Jeff in regards to the negative connotations that the title presents.

What is your targeted audience? Is it different from the publisher's?
Do you think that book sells would increase if the title were different?

I'm a big fan and believe that you're sincere and passionate about spreading the knowledge of ASP.NET 2.0 to others. But perhaps your work would be more "accepted" if the title was different

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/11/2006 7:04 AM Rajeev Gopal

I agree with Lakshmi's comments. Teach Yourself <This Technology> in <X> Hours has been in bookstores for a while. And by this time, everyone knows that it is for newbies. The similar ones are "For Dummies" series... Then the question comes, are ASP.NET really for dummies? LOL! The point here is that these books are really for beginners... it is implied... I learned ASP from a DUMMIES book... and I don't regret that, but I am proud of it that I picked that book...

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/13/2006 1:22 PM srt

Was my first car a Ferrari? NO

Was the first house I bought in Beverly Hills? NO

Was my first ASP.NET a 1500+ page one? Heck NO

It's how we humans do things ... start small, get motivated and make it big.

Also, so long as there are books like "X for Dummies" I don't see what's wrong in having book titles "Learn X in 24 hours".

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/16/2006 5:08 PM Anonymous

Hello,
Is it possible to call/invoke/consume .Net 2.0 assembly from .Net 1.x assembly?

Best Regards,
Anonymous

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/21/2006 12:13 PM Billkamm

If this book is not for experienced ASP.Net 1.x developers then where are the books for us? As much as I enjoy MSDN and 4guysfromrolla.com I must admit that I would sure love to a nice new shiney book in my possession. Scott if you write a book called "Learn everything new in ASP.Net 2.0 for ASP.Net 1.x developers in 24 hours" then I will be the first on the list to purchase that book.

Unfortunately, I realize that this book would get nowhere near the profits that a book targetted to beginners would get, but I think these are the type of books our field could use. Do you have any suggestions for good ASP.Net 2.0 books for an experienced ASP.Net 1.x developer?

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/21/2006 12:17 PM Billkamm

One more note on "Dummies" books vs. The Sams' "Teach yourself in..." series. I have found that the majority of "Dummies" books are literally "dumbed down books". They tend to find authors who have already written a book and basically asked them to remove a lot of content and release it under their brand name. You can usually search for the author of a dummies book on amazon.com and find a similiar book with more content. The Sams' books while they tend to use a marketing gimmic just like the Dummies books are in my experience the author's primary book on the subject and not a dumbed down version. I have good luck with Sams' books and would definitely recommend that publisher. The one exception is my Teach yourself XML in 10 minutes book which I did not like at all. My Teach yourself SQL in 10 minutes however was a great book.

Anyway I find that the in 10 minutes books in general make great pocket reference guides.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/27/2006 12:24 AM lb

Excellent back and forth Scott, Jeff, et al.

I think there is a strange attractiveness about books (and magazine articles in particular) that have numbers in the title.

It's a very common phenomenomenum (not good at spelling that word, sorry). The 'How to lose a guy in 10 days', or '7 habits of highly successful people' ---

i think a potential reader, says to themselves "hmmm, i can count to 7... i must be able to get through this book!! And at the end of it, i'll have definitely gained something."

As a test I deliberately wrote an article called '10 Ways to boost the Zen of Paint' (http://www.secretgeek.net/ZenOfPaint.asp) and i found that it 'caught on' with readers more than normal.

well, that's my bizarre numerology theory for today.

Best of luck.
lb

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 4/29/2006 10:22 PM Kevin

To be honest even for a beginner that title I think is misleading. Its simply almost impossible to learn a new technolgy especialy in .NET for 24 hours.

Having said that keep your good work Scott, your articles on 4guys and MSDN are top notch.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 5/4/2006 1:58 PM Robert

I chuckled as I read the blog and follow-on comments.
Speaking for myself, I purchased a SAMS book 'Learn C in 24 hours' awhile back. The intent was to get a refresher in a language I hadn't touched in 12+ years. And for that purpose, the book worked perfectly in that task. I followed the same approach for VB.NET in purchasing a 'Learn VB.NEt in 24 Hours' book. Since then I have purchased MASSIVE Volmues (think NY TImes Sunday Paper with Christmas ads weight) on C++ and VB.NET as well as ASP.Net. I view those books as 'lite' reading .. something to tantilize and tease ... not provide the 'main course' as it were.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 5/12/2006 2:52 PM Dale Preston

I don't see anything wrong at all with the 24 hour series at Sams. I have used a couple of them over the years and they've been well written and met their stated goals.

While many complain about Sams putting a 24 hour figure on learning ASP.Net, they don't object to Microsoft putting a 35 hour unspoken figure on the same topic. A 5 day Microsoft training class, averaging 7 hours of classroom time per day, comes to exactly that figure and

Microsoft claims to teach you many different topics in 5 day periods. Is it true that you can learn topics from C#, to VB.Net, to ASP.Net and even SQL Server 2005 in the same number of hours - that each take exactly 35 hours to learn? Of course not.

Sams just describes their content which is based upon a series of chapters or topics that total an expected 24 hours to go through. Your mileage may vary.

One advantage to the 24 hour series is that you can get a lightweight introduction to a broad spectrum of topics in a title quickly. Alternatively, you can get a 1500+ page book on the same topic and get much deeper into each topic but it will take you a lot longer before you have enough breadth to be productive.

Like you said, Scott, in your article about whether you need to be technically proficient to write techical articles, quality counts. I have seen 1500+ page books so poorly written so as to make them useless, even if they were technically accurate.

I rank the Sams 24 hour series right up with Microsoft's Step-by-Step series. Both offer a quick introduction to a topic when you have no experience or other training but if you pursue a technical field further, you will undoubtably read many of those 1000+ page books as well.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 5/12/2006 2:57 PM Dale Preston

One point I neglected to include: what about a 2 semester college class series on C++? A semester being 16 weeks long, and a 3 hour class generally means 3 hours of classroom time and 3 hours of other time per week, so a 2 semester class on C++ means a total of 192 hours experience in C++ when you graduate college. That amounts to approximately one month's experience on-the-job. So, how many hours does it take to learn anything? Maybe some think the lie in the title is "Teach yourself" rather than the 24 hours.

# &#191;Se Aprende o No en 24 Horas (&#243; 21 D&#237;as)? 7/26/2006 11:50 AM Nazul's Weblog

Algunos piensan que si... otros todo lo contrario.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 9/14/2006 10:23 AM Andy

Great Article.This will help and encourage us to to learn more and more about .Net Technology.
Thanks

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 9/14/2006 10:24 AM Andy

Good Article.

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 2/2/2007 10:01 AM Dale

I've spent about 2 weeks coming up to speed on ASP, .NET, and C# after coming from an open source world of PHP and MySQL. Even with a solid understanding of web fundamentals, theres no way 24h would be enough even for a seasoned developer.

/Agree with the cheapening the craft stuff.

# Musings About How Now to Write a Technical Book 4/28/2007 12:08 PM Scott on Writing

# Musings About How Now to Write a Technical Book 4/28/2007 12:26 PM Community Blogs

Jeff Atwood recently published a blog entry titled How Now to Write a Technical Book , in which he compared

# Musings About How Now to Write a Technical Book 4/28/2007 12:36 PM BusinessRx Reading List

Jeff Atwood recently published a blog entry titled How Now to Write a Technical Book , in which he compared

# re: Can You Learn ASP.NET in 24 Hours? 9/22/2007 7:03 AM paul

Does Scott Mitchells Online Photo Album Ever Work. Ive been 3 weeks trying to get my category id to show up in the drop down list

please help me

# Musings About How Not Write a Technical Book 10/3/2007 8:04 PM ASPInsiders

Jeff Atwood recently published a blog entry titled How Now to Write a Technical Book , in which he compared

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