Scott on Writing

Musings on technical writing...

What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes?

Is it just me, or are the online web pages at MSDN2 extremely “bulky?” I really like the MSDN2 design, from the friendly URLs to the slicker tree view, but garsh darnit if it isn't slower than molasses. There's typically a several-second pause from clicking on a link in a help doc or from the tree view, and having the page loaded, and my little network traffic monitor in the Google Desktop Sidebar shows network traffic peaking at 160 KB/s for several seconds. I decided to break out Fiddler to see just what the heck was slowing everything down. I picked an arbitrary MSDN2 page - BoundField Class - and here are the results:

  • 35 Files were downloaded from Microsoft's site during the request, from the core ASP.NET page to CSS files, JavaScript files, images, and files from WebResource.axd that were, I assume, JavaScript files (seeing as they were of MIME type application/x-javascript). The total bytes downloaded for all 35 files was 1,171,064!!
  • The main culprit, by far, was the ASP.NET page, which was a whopping 1,081,612 bytes in size!  Eep. Inspecting the rendered HTML, nearly 144 KB of that - about 13% - was view state. Aside from that, the majority of the bulk seemed due to JavaScript calls that tied together the main page content and the tree view on the left.
  • Sadly there was no compression on any dynamic resources. While this would add overhead on the server-side, it might be benefitial considering the rendered page sizes. Furthermore, the scripts emitted by WebResource.axd and the main page don't use caching. Which means I'm sucking down all 1+ million bytes the next time I hit this page. (The images, JavaScript files, and CSS files are cached.)

Do others experience this sort of lag on MSDN2? Alternatively, hitting up MSDN1 for the BoundColumn class help page (comparable to BoundField), 42 total files are downloaded, but the main ASP.NET page is about 1/90th the weight of the BoundField page, coming in at 13,569 bytes and the total size is 129,354 bytes (which is less than the view state size of the MSDN2 content!). Most of that total size is due to the tree view's XML content. However, since it's in a separate frame, the main page can load without having to wait for the other... much snappier than the MSDN2 counterpart.

Granted, I use the offline documentation 99% of the time (for this very reason, mostly), but when I link to Microsoft content through 4Guys articles and whatnot, it's frustrating that the help docs are so bloated. While it may not be practical, I think one way to fix this would be to require the page developers to access their own site using a modem.

(And, yes, I know I'm being a bit hypocritial here since I've created my fair share of bloated websites... in fact, I've created a page with a view state of over 800,000 bytes...)

posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 5:08 PM

Feedback

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/3/2006 7:28 PM Michael K. Campbell

What's REALLY amazing is that with all of those JS calls and other formatting 'goodies' that they still manage to make pages that simply won't work in FF - or that the 'TOC' on the left just doesn't work with any browser other than IE.

I mean 1MB (as drive manufacturers measure MBs *grin*) for a page size is quite large - especially when it doesn't GET you anything.

This page is one of my FAVORITES in FF:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms159162.aspx

And yeah, I FEEL for the devs who maintain that site - there is really sooo much info on it - but all of that bloat makes NO sense to me. Seems like that would CERTAINLY make their jobs more difficult.

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/3/2006 7:33 PM Michael K. Campbell

Woah! the sidebar/TOC works on those pages (in FF). Wonder why they don't work on oh...say... this page:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnxmlnet/html/largexml.asp

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/3/2006 8:14 PM Scott Mitchell

Michael, the link you point to is on MSDN1, no? I don't believe MSDN1 is that FireFox friendly. See:
http://scottonwriting.net/sowblog/posts/961.aspx
http://scottonwriting.net/sowblog/posts/1690.aspx

Although I do believe they fixed this eventually:
http://scottonwriting.net/sowblog/posts/2272.aspx

But, yes, I can imagine that the devs who manage that site probably have one of the toughest and thankless jobs. Not nearly as glamorous as hacking out XBOX games or hardware, or working on the Web 2.0 stuff, but 100x as important for MS's livelihood and future.

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/4/2006 11:03 AM Vishal

I have also noticed that if you use FF on some pages the font size will be really small for code snipets which really sucks as I have to then copy and paste URL in IE to browse help pages.

There is a huge difference in user experience browsing msdn on firefox and IE

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/4/2006 1:54 PM Mike Gale

I'd call this really bad design.

The real content is swamped by the baggage. Human readability is poor. Too many things to go wrong.

This frightens me, what sort of designs for the ASPX platform will come from a mindset like this.

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/4/2006 5:21 PM aleem

I suspect there's something wrong in the calculations here. Contrary to the size you claim, I haven't had any significant lag in loading the pages. They are bloated none-the-less.

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/5/2006 5:17 AM Mark

Vishal,

Don't forget for pages with those tiny fonts in FF that you can simply goto View, then Text Size to temporarily increase the font size.

MSDN has always been slow for me, even on a high speed connection.

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/7/2006 9:34 PM Ted Calhoun

Bad design indeed. That much viewstate is ridiculous. And what's with the cheesy page fade transitions? Not quite a great example of how to implement a site using ASP.NET.

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/8/2006 8:29 AM Scott Hanselman

You'd also think they'd turn on HTTP Compression...

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/8/2006 10:44 AM Jon Galloway

It's the treeview - that thing's a monster. Compression would sure help, but it's a band-aid fix. They need to change the treeview to load on demand. Spend $250 on the telerik Rad Treeview and save a bajillion on bandwidth costs...

http://www.telerik.com/asp-net-controls/drag-drop-ajax-treeview/features.aspx?b204F=X

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/14/2006 11:13 AM Devil™

Can we save the msdn site to our hard disk and use it from a web browser?

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/18/2006 8:50 PM Salman

I find the transition effect between pages to get annoying (i.e when you click on a link the page fades out or something).

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/24/2006 1:14 AM Jørn Schou-Rode

Compression is not enough here! MSDN has always been an extremely slow site, and obviously MSDN2 is inherting this drawback. I tried your link to the BoundField documentation, to discover the same as you: 1MB of markup + an uncountable number of resources. This is indeed bad Bad BAD design.

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 5/24/2006 1:17 AM Jørn Schou-Rode

Devil™ : You probably know this already, but a lot of the documentation is shipped on CDs with Visual Studio. As for downloading the entire site: I think one would need around 5TB free disk space ;-)

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 6/13/2006 1:15 AM Doc

I'm just starting with .NET (I'm the guy picking up .NET first in my company) and I'm using the C# 2005 Express Edition, which means "online-only framework reference" and, together with the fact that banwidth is limited (framework pages take almost 2 minutes to load!), this really, really, REALLY hurts!

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 6/13/2006 1:41 AM Doc

Forgot to mention that /every/ page loads about 1700KB of stuff... jeesh!

# re: What's with the MSDN2 Page Sizes? 8/11/2006 4:22 AM Gurpal S. Hundal (MSFT)

Some minor performance ehancements were made - compression is coming very soon. Check it out, http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ - notice the async toc and content load.

Title:  
Name:  
Url:
Protected by Clearscreen.SharpHIPEnter the code you see:
Comments   

Add To Your Reader

My Links

Archives

Post Categories

 

I am a Microsoft MVP for ASP.NET.
I am an ASPInsider.
<May 2008>
SMTWTFS
27282930123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
1234567

Comment Stats

DayTotal% of Total
Sunday 1866.8%
Monday 37913.9%
Tuesday 45316.7%
Wednesday 50418.5%
Thursday 53519.7%
Friday 49418.2%
Saturday 1666.1%
Total 2717100.0%

Hour1Total% of Total
12:00 AM 652.4%
1:00 AM 682.5%
2:00 AM 622.3%
3:00 AM 742.7%
4:00 AM 572.1%
5:00 AM 1033.8%
6:00 AM 1084.0%
7:00 AM 1585.8%
8:00 AM 1716.3%
9:00 AM 1475.4%
10:00 AM 1716.3%
11:00 AM 1816.7%
12:00 PM 1886.9%
1:00 PM 1696.2%
2:00 PM 1605.9%
3:00 PM 1324.9%
4:00 PM 1073.9%
5:00 PM 923.4%
6:00 PM 913.3%
7:00 PM 963.5%
8:00 PM 833.1%
9:00 PM 782.9%
10:00 PM 792.9%
11:00 PM 772.8%
Total 2717100.0%

Comments by Blog Entry Date/Time

Day Entry MadeAvg.Total
Sunday 5.54144
Monday 5.22339
Tuesday 4.28419
Wednesday 7.67637
Thursday 6.90607
Friday 5.48411
Saturday 5.33160
Total 5.842717

Hour1 Entry MadeAvg.Total
12:00 AM 5.0035
1:00 AM 1.002
5:00 AM 0.000
7:00 AM 7.0035
8:00 AM 5.35107
9:00 AM 6.32278
10:00 AM 6.47246
11:00 AM 4.41181
12:00 PM 6.88330
1:00 PM 3.00111
2:00 PM 5.41222
3:00 PM 8.64285
4:00 PM 4.0589
5:00 PM 5.92154
6:00 PM 4.52113
7:00 PM 9.67174
8:00 PM 9.80147
9:00 PM 5.05111
10:00 PM 5.4265
11:00 PM 4.5732
Total 5.842717

Learn More About Comment Stats
1 - All times GMT -8...


Blog Stats

Favorite Web Sites

My Books

My MSDN Articles